Episode 67 - A Good Death in Hospital and the Social Work Role
Episode 67 - A Good Death in Hospital and the Social Work Role
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
social worker, end of life, family, death, dying, Alan Wolfelt, Tennant’s of Companioning, bereaved, Advanced Care Directives, Death Cafes, sacred silence, death literacy.
SPEAKERS
Lis Murphy, Mim Fox, Justin Stech, Social Worker
Justin Stech 00:01
Welcome to Social Work Stories, a podcast exploring social work practice through stories and critical reflection. This podcast is recorded on Aboriginal country lands which were never seated. We acknowledge the traditional custodians and cultural knowledge holders of these lands, and pay our respects to Aboriginal elders past, present and emerging. We offer a warm welcome to any indigenous listeners who are part of our podcast community around the world. If you have thoughts or feedback for our team, or just want to find our whole back catalogue of episodes, check out our website SocialWorkstories.com. But for now, on with the episode
Lis Murphy 00:53
and welcome to the Social Work stories podcast. My name Lis Murphy and I'm joined by my partner in crime Dr. Fox. Hello, Mim.
Mim Fox 01:02
Hi Lis. Hi, everyone. Great to be back on the pod.
Lis Murphy 01:05
I must have been feeling a bit rusty.
Mim Fox 01:08
I know. I know. We've we're still not quite into 2022 yet, but we'll get there pretty quick. I think this is the episode to really real us back in Lis.
Lis Murphy 01:16
I think I've got a an excuse though Mim, I'm in my third month of long service leave and I have had barely anything to do with the social work fraternity for a while. It's just plants and grandchildren. Yeah, yeah. And oh, selling my house.
Mim Fox 01:39
So coming towards the end of your first trimester of your of your planned leave? Is that what you're saying?
Lis Murphy 01:45
I like to call it my soul pregnancy actually, Mim because just coincidentally, I have nine months long service leave and it's the longest time I've ever taken away from work without having to have a child. But I don't even think then I took as long as this. So I have stepped away.
Mim Fox 02:06
Isnt that crazy that you just haven't had this sort of break for so long.
Lis Murphy 02:13
I know. I know.
Mim Fox 02:14
Have you had any nausea any morning sickness through the trimester?
Lis Murphy 02:18
No, that and that's been really lovely, too. I haven't had any of those side effects that I haven't had.
Mim Fox 02:24
You havent missed.
Lis Murphy 02:27
Not at all. Not at all. And every so often, I just send loving thoughts and vibes to my social work brother and sisters. But really not missing it at all at all. And I look like again, the only time I ever really hear about it is on the news and about you know, related to COVID waves and things like that. So I always think with a full heart look, sending you sending you a lot of thoughts. But I'm me on the other hand, not missing it at all. But this is nice.
Mim Fox 03:04
But you've been so immersed Lis in the in the planting, in the garden.
Lis Murphy 03:09
Oh, I thought you meant 36 years I've been immersed in the profession and yeah, you betcha!
Mim Fox 03:14
Balancing that out with the immersion you're now having which is so incredibly soulful. So I think there's a balance that you've got in your life, which I think is absolutely beautiful. And we talk so much about that on this podcast right about getting balanced and about self care, and about thinking about what it is you particularly need.
Lis Murphy 03:33
That's right, look, I'm I'm so balanced I'm nearly floating at the moment. And this podcast though, has just reminded me how much I love to live vicariously through my colleagues and friends because Mim as you know, this particular episode is one of those pieces that we both love to talk about, because it's centering around the end of life of a person. And we have a wonderful social worker that's made our job so much easier to reflect on after we listen to her. In fact, I think it's what you and I like to fondly call a hammock piece. Not only does she tell the story, she also incorporates the framework that she uses and the reasons why.
Mim Fox 04:23
Absolutely this is one of our "How to" episodes but this episode is a bereavement social worker, Lis, who works particularly in the space of bereavement care and palliative care. And so it's one of those at the topic is so close to our hearts, obviously one of both of our most favorite practice spaces, but also she talks about this notion of good death. And I think that is a really much discussed idea. That is sometimes really hard to actually visualize. What might a good death be often we can think about what might a bad death be, but to actually visualize a good death, I think can be hard. And that's something I think this social worker, is the gift of this story the social worker has given us is actually being able to visualize it.
Lis Murphy 05:10
And it's a good death in a hospital, I think we need to emphasize too Mim because there are challenges, of course, in that particular end of life scenario that you, you know, you don't actually have your home environment. But I've really enjoyed listening to the ways in which she makes this a very sacred space for both the patient, the person, and also the family, and how are you okay, if we listen to it, and then we'll come back because I know we've got lots that we want to focus on.
Mim Fox 05:44
I think we need to, I think that's the way to do it is just sit back and enjoy and enjoy this beautiful piece of practice. But also, if endstage care and end of life, social work practice is your thing or something you're wanting to aspire to, then this is the episode for you. So yeah, take some notes, and we'll see you at the end of the story.
Social Worker 06:04
Two years now, I've been working as a grief and bereavement social worker. And I couldn't think of an example given the changes COVID has bought to how people die in hospitals, and their families experience of this. I had to dig deep for this example of what I think a good death can look like. From when I was working as an aged care social worker in a Metropolitan Hospital. Acute aged care comes a close second for me in terms of my clinical passion. I love the diversity of presentations from end of life care and elder abuse, to cognitive impairment in therapeutic work with older patients who are living with loss constantly with a functionally cognitively, but also through the death of peers, spouses and so on. Interestingly, when I first started as a social worker 20 years ago, we're working on a rehab Ward, a very old patient was in their mid 80s. What were terminal illnesses 20 years ago were now chronic illnesses, and it is not uncommon for there to be patients in their late 90s or over 100 on the ward. Often there is a lifetime's worth of family issues, dynamics and conflict, which although can be challenging work is also extremely satisfying.
This story is split over two admissions and hopefully demonstrates what a good death in the hospital setting can look like. I have to say, though, much of this comes down to the fact that the family were very cohesive. They had similar values and respect for each other as well as believing deeply that quality of life was important, not quantity. So let's meet Jim. Jim was 87. He was a retired accountant who loved gardening and catching up with his friends at the bowling club that he'd been a member of for 30 years. He now lived at home alone after his wife had died four years ago. Over the past year, Jim had been becoming increasingly frail and needing services and support from family to stay living at home. He had heart failure and chronic lung disease, and we're starting to experience some mild memory problems. His family were really worried that he would not be able to live at home independently for much longer.
Jim had two loving and devoted children, Jenny and Andrew. This was Jim's second admission this year with a fall and a broken hip. I was asked to see Jim as the kids had requested a social work review as they were concerned about discharged. I already had concerns about Jim before I went in to see him. As we know for older people, multiple hospital admissions in a short period of time can be an indicator that a person is approaching the end of their life. After introducing myself and gaining consent, I sat down opposite Jim. Throughout my initial psychosocial assessment, I was able to learn about Jim and his life, I was able to get a sense of what was important to Jim and what wasn't. Genuine curiosity opened up a conversation about his values and wishes. I asked Jim questions like, "Jim, what is most important to you when you think about living well?" and "What does a good day look like for you?" The kids were able to hear what living well at end of life meant to Jim and what was important to him. As a family. They touched on the topic after their mother had died, but they have not explored it further.
What we know from the research is that 82% of people think it's important to talk to their loved ones about end of life wishes, yet only 28% have done so With a further 14%, having documented those wishes in an Advanced Care Plan or Directive. We also know that patients wait for health professionals to initiate these discussions, and simply because I had this gave Jim and his kids permission to talk it through. At times during the discussion, the kids would get a little upset and teary but Jim would say "It's okay, we need to talk about this, I don't want you having to make these decisions if I can't, I don't want that weighing down on you." At the end of our discussion, I asked Jim, if we could contact the doctor to come and see him to further discuss this and document his preferences on the medical record. Jim was happy to do this. Jim left my ward to attend rehab and I handed over to the rehab social worker, he was discharged home with a transitional aged care package to continue slow stream rehab at home and get his functioning back to the level it was before the fall.
For me, these discussions are very connected to my values of social justice, respect and self determination. Because I view death as a normal and expected part of life and dying as a social, psychological and spiritual experience with a medical dimension. Initiating and navigating these discussions in the healthcare setting can go some of the way to ensuring quality end of life care, which is a human right.
The following year, on a Monday morning, I saw Jim's name on the patient journey board. He was admitted with a community acquired pneumonia and on fluids and antibiotics. He was deteriorating, and the nurses asked if I could provide some support to the family as they were crying. Now, this type of referral always makes me giggle and shake my head simultaneously. Some people feel so uncomfortable and others crying even though it's completely appropriate, and appear so disconnected from how to engage with people having human responses to loss and grief. Anyway, I knew this was not going to be a quick Social Work intervention and that I needed to make time for Jim and his kids.
Before walking into these clinical situations, I always spend a minute or so deep breathing and centering myself. I asked myself, what sort of social worker would I want walking in here? I find this really grounding. A busy aged care caseload means you rush from multiple discharge planning cases, to guardianship applications and so on. And rushing into a referral like this all elevated does not help. I've done it and the patient and the family do not get what they want or need from me as I am too reactive and heightened. I need to check in with myself and be attuned to how I am feeling. How can we hold someone else's emotional pain, if we have nothing to give because our cup is empty. Jim was sleeping in the bed. Jenny and Andrew was sitting either side of him. Jenny's eyes looked swollen and red and Andrew looked fatigue. All the lights were on full tilt, and I could smell cleaning product. I walked over to the bed and put my hand on Jim's hand and quietly said, "Hi, Jim. It's Jo, the social worker you met last year. I hope you don't mind me popping in to see how you're all doing." It's so important to acknowledge the person in the bed irrespective of how they are presenting. This is dignified and compassionate care, and families really appreciate it. Jenny and Andrew remembered me from our discussion the previous year, which meant we had a good rapport instantly. Continuity of care in these situations is so useful for clinicians, patients and family. They caught me up on how the last year had been at home for Jim. They reported he was eating less, sleeping more and becoming much more frail. I asked them what their understanding of the current situation was. And they explained that they'd had a meeting with the treating team in the emergency department and had used an Advanced Care Directive Jim had written up with his geriatrician to guide the medical intervention. Jim had specified he did not want IV antibiotics in this situation. And if he didn't respond to oral antibiotics, that was okay. He wanted to be made comfortable. I asked if he was responding to the antibiotics and Andrew said, "No, not like we'd hoped." I held the silence at that point to let the reality of the situation sink in for Jenny and Andrew and myself.
To master the skill of sitting in silence and holding space took me some years, and the work of Alan Wolfelt, who wrote "The 11 Tenants of Companioning the Bereaved." was game changing for me. All of the Wolfelt's principles are invaluable to clinicians when providing care at end of life. I asked Jenny and Andrew, if they wanted to come outside and talk further. And they said they felt comfortable staying with Jim and him hearing our conversation. I explored how they were managing, who was supporting them and who did Jim want around at this time. I was essentially during a psychosocial spiritual assessment. They told me they had been staying around the clock as they were worried he would die and he didn't want to be alone. Jenny reported that Jim seemed to be dreaming at times and mumbling to himself. I asked Jenny, what she made of that? And she replied, "Well, maybe that is talking to mum and his own father, who he was really close to."
16:03
I asked Jenny, "how does that sit with you?" And she said, "I can't really make sense of it. But I feel really reassured that dad is okay and not in distress," which is what her and Andrew were most fearful of. We had a discussion about Jim's beliefs in spirituality as well as theirs. This is one of my favorite parts of doing end of life, social work, such interesting and meaningful existential discussions that we can all learn so much about people from, and how they will cope in their bereavement from this. When families are able to make sense of what's happening in front of them and why it is, it really helps in their grief. In this case, for example, it was reassuring for Jenny and Andrew to know that when Jim died, they believed he would be reunited with their mum. Also, because they'd heard firsthand what Jim did and didn't want, at the end of life, the emotional burden of making those decisions were taken from them. They were still grieving at their father dying, but it wasn't complicated by them having to make decisions. I listened to Jenny and Andrew, let them lead the conversation. Me just asking questions here and there. One thing that kept coming up was their fear of Jim being distressed. We talked about this at length, was it emotional, social or existential distress they feared or physical distress. They were mostly concerned about him being physically comfortable, so I offered to have the palliative care team come and talk them through the dying process, and how symptoms are managed in end of life. Jenny and Andrew agreed to speak to them. Palliative care teams are master communicators in all things end of life. They have immense skill, knowledge and resources in navigating death and dying and if families need extra support and reassurance the PAL care team give time to them. It is often time that is needed as well as some sensitive communication and families and patients do not necessarily get this on a busy aged care ward round.
I told Jenny and Andrew that I would come in and see them tomorrow and ask them to think about bringing in items from home that gym would like to make the room as comfortable as possible, including photos a blanket, but also to consider if Tim would want to be listening to music. The following morning at the ward meeting, he was communicated that Jim was dying. He was settled and his family was around him. The PAL care team had been in to review and set up a medication regime as well as made the environment more soothing by Dimming the lights and using social work reed diffusers to take that hospital stink out of the room. Grandkids had been coming in with Andrew's and Jenny's partners and Jenny had bought in Jim's best mate from the bowling club.
I caught Jenny as she was walking to the cafe. I asked her if I could join her and we walked to get her a much needed coffee. She was updating me on where things were at. She was really thankful that on the evening shift the night before an amazing nurse have facilitated a beautiful opportunity for some of the grandkids to tell each other their favorite grandad memory in the room with their parents there. There was laughter and tears. I asked Jenny what the nurse said and she told me that the nurse went around the room starting with the oldest granddaughter asking, "Can you tell me about granddad and what makes him laugh?" and to the next child, "What was granddad's favorite thing to do?" and so on. That nurse was bringing light into the dark for those kids and normalizing the experience of dying. She was also showing them that it's okay to be sad and laugh at the same time. It's that duality we experience at times like these. As we were walking back to the ward with Jenny's coffee in hand, I brought up the topic of creating keepsakes. I explained that to continue to feel connected to our loved ones. We work with the family to create mementos, hand and footprints, photographs, locks of hair and so on. Jenny jumped on the chance for us to take some photos of her and her kids holding granddad's hand. It's actually really strange this as many families want pictures of their person's hands. There's something about those nobly arthritic digits that's just so meaningful to some people. As we were taking the photos, I admired what they had done with the room. The dimmed lights made all the difference. Music was playing gently and I could smell lavender. Jim had a quilt from home draped over him and pictures of his wedding on the bedside table. This opened up a lovely discussion about how Jim and his wife had met and the life they had built whilst we took the photos. Jenny was happy to use her phone so she could access them later. Everyone seems so settled, so I left Jim in the family to be together. Sometime later in the day, Jim took his last breath with his family around him. They were very sad and teary. And when I went in to see them and saw Jenny, she came up to me and hugged me. I held her and was silent as she cried. When she pulled away all she said was Thank you. All I did was nod.
As I made my way out of the room, I clocked Andrew who had come over to me, and we had a corridor conversation. He was wondering about the practicalities. From this point on, I was able to talk him through what happened next and gave him the bereavement booklet with all the relevant information. Jim had already chosen his funeral provider so that decision was made. Andrew was apologetic about being so practically focused, but this gave me an opportunity to discuss grieving styles, grief reactions, and emphasizing that there's no right or wrong way to grieve. Andrew also was thankful.
Three days later, I called Jenny to see how they were all doing. She was feeling supported and together with Andrew was working through the practical things. We talked about looking after herself at this time, but also the importance of riding the waves and acknowledging and accepting the varied emotions she was going to feel over the coming days, weeks and months. I gave her my contact details again and invited her to call me if anything was needed. I never heard from her, which only suggests that everything was okay for Jenny, Andrew and their families.
This case study really captures the work we do when someone is dying in the hospital setting and how dignified and peaceful it can be. We worked as a team to provide holistic care to Jim and his family. I undertook assessment, which is for me the cornerstone of my practice, therapeutic intervention with companioning life review and men memory making, as well as facilitating a soothing environment plus, providing practical assistance and psycho education all happened in this case study. And that is the social work role in end of life care. I just wanted to make one last point. Don't wait for a referral for end of life care. Only social workers can clearly articulate what we do when we speak to patients and families. Ask any doctor or nurse what a social worker does in end of life care. And it's unlikely they fully understand the knowledge and skills we bring to care for the dying and their families.
Mim Fox 24:16
Lis I loved at the end there where the social worker says, "and that's how you do end stage care", right? That's the summary of the end of life role for social work. Just in a nutshell. How many times do you reckon that social workers had to describe the social work role in in stage care to other disciplines?
Lis Murphy 24:47
Oh, she's got the lift pitch down pat now.
Mim Fox 24:50
That's right. Like she could say it so quickly and just summarize it so succinctly. Right?
Lis Murphy 24:55
I think that and also giving them, this episode from the podcast because, of course, they don't know what goes on because often they're not in this space where social workers are. And as you and I like to call it some magic behind the curtain that's that's often invisible to our team members. I mean, we do I mean, we do listen to a wonderful nurse in this story as well. But yeah, a lot of what of what the social worker does in relation to the support work and the family conversations and the beautiful questioning that the social worker poses for us, doesn't get listened to by our colleagues, because they're busy doing something else. So yeah, she's she's got that lift pitch down pat, beautifully.
Mim Fox 25:45
I love that. I love that. And she was just so clearly able to articulate the stages of interventions and work that she did with the family, right? Like it was, it was very clear trajectory. And then she's identifying at every single stage, where she's actually making that space sacred, supporting the family within that space, but also staying true to that notion of a good death. Right. So leaving the focus on the person who is actually dying.
Lis Murphy 26:14
she weaves, Alan Wolfelt's work beautifully in this scenario. And what I would say to our listeners, is to really strengthen your learning in this space, have a look at his website, we'll link them in the show notes. But you can if you read through some of the principles that he emphasizes in his framework, you will be able to then really understand the thinking behind some of the things that the social worker talks about, in the work that she did with this family, like the companioning. Like the sacred silence, like the being still in that in that moment. And Mim, wasn't that a really important thing that she did, just before walking into this room.
Mim Fox 27:04
That was a really a touchstone moment, wasn't it Lis?
Lis Murphy 27:07
Absolutely. Good point. It's a touchstone and a touchstone that that was a great reminder for us. Do not walk into a space like this, with the burden of your day. Do exactly what the social worker, did, you breathe ground, center yourself and walk into that space before and don't even open your mouth for a bit.
Mim Fox 27:30
Yeah. Do you remember the question she asked herself, which was, "What does the family need from me?" And I really love that because it centers the work within the family and the dying person's experience, right? It's straight away re orientates the entire situation. So it's not about the crazy day that's happened up until walking through that door. It's all about what does this family need from me in this moment? I love that.
Lis Murphy 27:56
And and, I mean, I guess you and I have just organically gone straight into the death space. Yeah, but we also heard that a lot of work took place, you know, much earlier than then the actual day that this man was was, was dying. And you know, I was really reflecting on on, we'll call him Jim, just to let you know, listeners, that's not his real name. But I was reflecting on Jim and a metaphor came up for me. And it's the old I love a good cooking metaphor. And so I'm calling this Jim's recipe for a good death. And so the the key ingredients he had in this good death was he had a cohesive family right. Now you and I both know that is gold, and I just I just want a really a really quick milk crate moment now. Hollywood has a lot to answer for. Because there is this belief that you could have. You could have the family from hell, but it's all going to come together at that deathbed. There'll be that beautiful conversation and all will be done. No, we don't see that. If anything, the cracks get bigger. That's not not reality. And not in Jim's case, because he had a cohesive son and daughter. Not only were they cohesive, they were very supportive of his end of life plan. There had been worked out discussed. Good old Jim, he was very, very, I guess, proactive in what he wanted. And he was open in the way discussed it, ingredient number two. Yeah, he also had a consistent social worker who knew what she was doing in relation to this and helping to shape those conversations and, and to then support that process taking place a few weeks, months down the track.
Mim Fox 29:53
So what you've just described is apart from it being Jim's recipe is that you've just described the notion of death literacy, which the social worker does speak to right, this idea of actually working with people about their understandings of death, that both leading up to the actual point of death, right, so that actually, this is not a topic we ignore. This is actually a topic we go into detail and depth about. So that when the time comes, everybody has the same level of depth literacy, right? Everyone has similar understandings, and everyone's as prepared as each other. This is the person who's dying, as well as the people around them. And this is a notion that actually has been talked about quite a lot recently in the literature. And and we know it from practice, that actually, when people are shocked and surprised and aren't prepared for an experience, there, then is the possibility of ongoing, complicated grief, trauma responses, a range of different issues, right. So this is part of setting up the scene for good death. And I think the social what the social worker did was really be able to step that out for us that actually, bereavement work doesn't, although sometimes it does start on the day of the death, in some situations, a good death involves planning, and involves discussion and conversation.
Lis Murphy 31:10
You know MIm, one of the really important things I did, I think, to help me to understand this space more, and what might be the thinking of a person who is planning their end of life, or having these conversations for the family, is to do it myself. And so you know, like, often, often we'll pick on our older parents to go to you know, if you've got the end of life plan, I decided before I went down that path, I do my own. And that I learned so much from doing an Advanced Care Directive, getting my wheel in order, and also having conversations with my, my son and daughter, and partner about what I want at the end stage of my life. And then after that, I was enabled to engage in it more with my own family. And I think that was like the best CPD session I did. And the interesting thing is I've often asked other social workers have you done this yourself? And And interestingly, many haven't. And so I want this to be a little spruik to people to listeners to actually do it like there's the Department of Health New South Wales Health, they've got a really good resources around this as well do your own.
Mim Fox 32:29
Yeah, I wonder, Liz whether doing your own actually builds your empathy for family members and, and people themselves as well who have you know, terminal diagnosis or poor prognosis to actually it builds your empathy about what they might be going through, when they're having those conversations, because you've actually experienced it.
Lis Murphy 32:51
And all the different things that you can consider when you imagine your own end of life as well. I don't know whether you did this Mim but in the 80s it was big when you were going into birth a child you came up with a birth plan, you know, you took in your birth cake, you had your your massage ball, your had your, you know, your music, your birth music, I mean, most of it goes out the window, of course, and you're screaming for the pethidine before, you know, but there was something about planning that with with the people that were going to be part of that birth experience that really gave a sense of agency and made it real, like you're saying there was a there was a sense of really being able to understand it, that you're not going to get in a lot of workshops, but then to be able to use some of the questioning that our social worker was able to articulate for us in this episode, I thought was great. Yeah, asking Jim about like in that what you know, "What constitutes a good day for you, Jim?" I thought that's such a strength based question to understand who this person is, and what's the value in his life.
Mim Fox 34:07
Yeah, I love that. And I wonder whether there's space there for for in the same way you might have a birth doula, I wonder whether or support person I wonder whether there's space there for a death companion, someone who may or may not be in your family immediately, but can help to support that death literacy and that process or ritual around what's actually coming. And I know that priests and religious people often play that role. But often that's about whether they already know the family and are already involved or the person is active in their congregation or not. But there's a whole lot of people out there who don't have those community connections and I do wonder whether there's a space there for somebody like that.
Lis Murphy 34:48
Well they're actually called death doulas, there are death doulas as well. And certainly, you know, I've heard of them in the inner city, Sydney. I'm sure we'll get some emails now from for social workers who have perhaps worked with them. Because I like to think of social workers as the the death midwives.. the end of life midwives?
Mim Fox 35:12
That's right. There's a lot of parallels, actually, between birth support and death support that we provide, isn't there? Indeed. And you know what I love? This all takes us back to the beginning of our conversation, Liz, which was about your soul pregnancy?
Lis Murphy 35:25
Oh, my gosh.
Mim Fox 35:27
I'm not surprised that you use the recipe metaphor, I have to say in this discussion.
Lis Murphy 35:34
Beautiful, people would think that we, you know, we put a lot of thought and planning into that.
Mim Fox 35:39
In the same way that you're spending all this time in your garden Lis, our discussion is organic in nature.
Lis Murphy 35:43
But just, of course, it wouldn't be an episode without us taking another left of field comment here. One of the things that made me chuckle when I was listening to this social worker was when she was having a chuckle about those referrals for the person who's crying. Oh, I loved it. I liked it. I don't reckon there's ever been a social worker who has not had a referral for someone who's crying?
Mim Fox 36:15
Absolutely. You know, we've talked on this podcast before about the referrals for haircuts, or, you know, for a piece of clothing, but I love I love this one, the referral for someone who's crying, because really, in an ideal world Lis no matter what was happening to you, you just simply wouldn't be crying.
Lis Murphy 36:36
And so I'm envisaging that this particular social worker would have used it as a wonderful opportunity to normalize the tears of whether it be Jim or Jim's family. Talking about it in terms of a natural part of of grieving, and, yeah, I can't imagine that she would have let this one go.
Mim Fox 37:00
I'm sure the social worker was much more mature that I'm feeling right now. Because I think I would have turned around and said, "You know that they're losing someone right now? Crying, is a really natural response."
Lis Murphy 37:13
No, no, this goes with this goes with the elevator pitch, Mim.
Mim Fox 37:16
Yeah, you're right. You're right, Lis, it comes down to the beautiful, succinct summary that the social worker gave right? Lis, if there's anyone I would rather talk death and dying with, it's you, my friend. Oh, great to get a make about great again, speak about some just really solid practice in this space.
Lis Murphy 37:35
Did you know, just on that note, Mim? Yeah, I think I mean, of course, if we're out for dinner, and we're not with social workers, you and I, of course, would be up one end of the table, having the death conversations and the other people would be kind of distancing themselves.
Mim Fox 37:51
They'd be inching themselves along the table in the other direction, I think Lis.
Lis Murphy 37:57
I think we take the death cafes, to our own social circles. Oh, I love that. You know, like, why do we have to wait for a death cafe to come to our local neighborhood, we take the death cafes, to our family gatherings, to our, you know, social gatherings, why not?
Mim Fox 38:20
We turn up to the family lunch, the family dinner, and we say we hand out the will paperwork and the, you know, guardianship paperwork. And we say, "While we're all together, let's talk about what happens next." I think that's, you know, like, we joke about it Lis, but actually, I think the point here is really clear, it comes back to the death literacy we were talking about. And it comes back to getting rid of some of these taboo subjects so that these moments in people's lives, these really Crux times when the social workers are walking into that moment, taking a breath before they walk through the door. They're actually based in some death literacy. Right? That actually these are conversations that aren't new to everyone. I think that's actually we can joke about it all we like, but I think actually, that's the point we're making, right? That actually some death literacy just more broadly, in our society would not be a bad thing. And let's be clear that we're also talking primarily about Western society, right? Like, actually, this is a very different experience in many cultures around the world. So let's acknowledge that our positionality here as well in this discussion.
Lis Murphy 39:29
Absolutely. Thank you for doing that. Dr. Fox, and of course, we love getting emails and, and messages from people. So, you know, we'd love to hear about some of the different practices, or anything that came up for you as a result of listening to this rather organic and rambling conversation that we've had.
Mim Fox 39:51
Absolutely, but particularly, I would be really keen to hear if there are social workers out there who see themselves as death doulas. I think that would be amazing. Or if they've worked with a death doula in the clinical space. I think that would be really fascinating to find out about how widespread that is. So if you've had an experience like that, drop us a line, get us get on to our website, socialworkstories.com. Hit us up on Twitter, or Instagram or Facebook. We would really love to hear from you. And it's been great hearing from everyone in the New Year as well, I have to say, thanks so much, everyone. Thanks, Lis. Have a great couple of weeks.
Lis Murphy 40:25
You too, Mim. Thanks, Justin.
Mim Fox 40:27
Bye, thanks. See you later.
Justin Stech 40:34
Thanks for listening to the Social Work stories podcast. All of the stories we share are de identified to respect and protect the people involved. We create this podcast because we're passionate about building the Global Social Work community and strengthening our practice no matter the context. If you want to help us grow the podcast tribe, and continue the work that we do, we would love it if you can subscribe or follow the podcast in your favorite podcast app. That way, you'll be sure to get every episode as soon as it's released. While you're in your podcast app. If you can leave us a five star rating and a review it would mean so much to us. You can connect with us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and LinkedIn where you can share our posts with your friends to help spread the word. And you can always find us at our home on the web. Socialworkstories.com The Social Work Stories podcast is made by Justin Stech, Lis Murphy and Dr. Mim Fox. Thanks so much for listening.